CEO To Rainmaker
CEO To Rainmaker
Episode # 77, Mastering Family Business Challenges and Strategizing Your Exit with Marty Kaufman
Unlock the secrets to navigating the complexities of family-owned businesses and discover how to craft a successful exit strategy with the wisdom of Marty Kaufman, founder of Accent Computer Solutions. Marty's entrepreneurial spark ignited a legacy, transitioning from the constraints of General Dynamics to cultivating a thriving business intertwined with family. Brace yourself for a journey through the trials and triumphs of integrating loved ones into the corporate world and the artful considerations involved in passing the torch.
Ever wondered how departmental ownership can revolutionize the efficiency of technical tools, or what role specialized consultants play in maintaining a well-oiled business machine? We've got you covered. Marty shares is experience in selling his business and the weight of such a decisions on family and legacy. From the nuances of estate planning to the strategic dance with stock options, he dissects the fine details that could alter the course of a family enterprise.
As we wrap up, witness the transformational power of faith and perseverance in the world of entrepreneurship. Marty's testament to the guiding hand of a higher power over three and a half decades in business is not only inspiring but a beacon for those navigating their own corporate journeys. His insights offer a roadmap to a rewarding life, filled with the pursuits of passion beyond the boardroom. Don't miss this episode filled with heartfelt advice, strategic guidance, and the promise of a fulfilling future post-business success.
Peter Drucker, the legendary business management consultant, is famous for his saying begin with the ending mind. Today's show contains many gold nuggets along two tracks the dynamics of family-owned businesses and a successful exit strategy. Before I bring out my guest, mr Marty Kaufman, who is living the entrepreneur's dream in parentheses, he had a huge cash buyout after 35 years of hard work as the founder and CFO of his own company, which later became a family business as he brought on his children or work with him. His wife also worked with him for a while. I would like to share with you a few fun facts about family-owned businesses, or FOBS, because I don't want to keep saying that word. These facts assume that family members other than the founder have some partial legal ownership in the company, which may or may not be the case. But here are the fun facts. Per the SVA, here are 5.5 million family-owned businesses in the US. Only 9% of them make a million dollars a year. 24% of all FOBS, as of today, are led by women. 60% of FOBS represent 60% of the workforce, 78% of new jobs and 64% of the gross domestic product. They are a force.
Speaker 1:The average FOB lifespan is 24 years. 82% of FOBS fail due to poor financial management. 49% of current entrepreneurs indicated they grew up in a FOB. Fobs' three largest weaknesses are nepotism, complicated succession issues and family members unprepared to take on leadership roles when the business needs it. Only 40% of FOBS successfully transitioned to the second generation. That's a big one. For me, that's a shocker. Get this one. I love this. 30% of FOBS owners have no plans to retire ever. The meeting age of a FOB owner is 51 years old. 30% indicate that they wish to retire in 12 to 15 years. In other words, they plan to live out their golden years in their office. 31% of FOB owners have no estate plan other than a will, and this one is scary. 49% of all FOBs collapse, almost a half due to the owner's expected or unexpected death. So it's time to bring out Marty Coffin, the star of today's show. Let's give him a round of applause. Marty, thanks for coming on the show, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thanks, gene, good to be here.
Speaker 1:Marty, I have so many questions to ask you on behalf of my listeners, followers and myself. I read in your bio that you're a private pilot and you're a two-time Ironman and a motocross Grand Prix racer. Is that what it looks like when you're rich and free?
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I did all that before I was rich and free, but you stole my thunder.
Speaker 2:You enjoying yourself? I'm enjoying myself. My goal when I it's hard for me to say retired, but I'm not going to say retired, I'm not going to say retired after the career I've had, but when I retired my goal was to fly my airplane more, make my golf handicap go down, play my guitar and travel. And so far we've mostly just traveled. So you know, I've gotten a chance to fly the airplane a lot and travel. We're starting to travel the world, but the guitar and the golf is much more work than I thought it would be.
Speaker 1:So let's shift a few gears, marty. Let's go back to your humble beginnings. What was the name of the business that you started? What does it do? When did you start it and where did the seed of the business idea come from for your business? If you want me to repeat those one by one, I will.
Speaker 2:Well, if I forget to answer them, you can remind me. The company's name was Accent Computer Solutions. It was founded by me and a couple of guys at General Dynamics where I worked back then. I, you know I, ended up having the ideas come from. We worked in the computer support department back then and, to be frank, general Dynamics was moving. This was 1985, by the way.
Speaker 2:Okay, and my, my, my division of General Dynamics was moving to Arizona at the time and my wife and I decided I wasn't going to Arizona. So the company was going along right then. But it was a very much, you know. We just had extra money now and again. That's what we did. We were software development hard to make a living doing software development back then. So at one point during that 85 period I split from those partners and took it myself to do accounting software. That's what I was. My degree is in computer information systems and accounting. So I had a good idea of how to do accounting and accounting software. So I started doing that and when General Dynamics decided to move it kind of made the business become my source of income because we weren't moving to Arizona. So when I told my bosses that I'm not moving to Arizona. They said well, you know you're signing your resignation notice. And I said, you know, with a big goal. I said okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:That took some courage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it did take some courage. We had my wife was a brand new teacher. She wasn't making any money, I wasn't making any money either and we had one child who was born right then. So he was a baby, so it kind of that's where it all started.
Speaker 1:To be frank, Okay, and this, so you started accent in 1987.
Speaker 2:Well, technically, 85 is when it began. I went solo in 87.
Speaker 1:Okay, so when did your children, casey and Courtney, start to work at your business, and why did that happen?
Speaker 2:So that just a correction on that. Courtney is my daughter and Corey is the young, the older. Oh, I'm sorry, corey, courtney's last name is Casey, so that sounds funny, right, okay, okay. So my son, corey, who's now just turning 40, and Courtney Corey and Courtney both worked when they were in high school at the organization doing odd jobs.
Speaker 1:Okay, just to help you out, just to help that out.
Speaker 2:So Corey wanted to buy a set of golf clubs and I told him he had to work for him. So you had to pay them in some form or another so that he could go buy his, his golf clubs. Courtney enjoyed office and filing work and things like that, so she went there and I probably should tell the last part of that story first, because it makes sense. She never left the first day. Courtney started at accent at 12 years old. She never had another job after that. She stayed.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So how did the employment of Corey and their official employment at accent of Corey and Courtney impact the company culture at the time?
Speaker 2:Well, corey began later than Courtney because Courtney was already in and she wasn't doing marketing at the time, because she didn't know, we didn't know we needed that. That was a long ass time ago, you know so. But Corey came because he worked at enterprise rental car up in Walnut Creek and you know he was getting frustrated with how enterprise was treating people and I invited him to come in at that time and Corey eventually worked his way through almost all the departments. Courtney, on the other hand, when she started at 12 years old and she can continue through school she got a marketing degree and once that happened if it hadn't been for her I mean, it was her and I that started the marketing and I personally I believed in the very beginning that you didn't have to have the best products, but you had to have the best marketing. Now, that was a way to get started. Turns out, we have really we had and we still have really good products. But my thing was if you don't have a marketing department, it doesn't matter how good your product is.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I paid people six figures earlier than Courtney. So I paid people over 100 grand back in the eight nineties to market and I didn't even take a salary at that time.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay. So in the early beginnings then, in terms of non-family employees, there wasn't any. It was just you and Casey, your wife, doing the books occasionally. Was that it?
Speaker 2:No, no, it was quite the opposite. I started the company, I had employees in the field doing tech work, I had accounting departments, I had all the right jobs filled, except for I was operating as salesperson and operations manager back then. But as and if we include that Derek Wolfe, who you mentioned, that I was CFO but I was the CEO Derek ended up being the COO who was doing the financial work, and he was with me for 22 years. So I mean, it's quite a.
Speaker 1:those kids came later, okay, okay, did you and I don't mean this to be well, let me just come out and say it yeah, sure, did you train and manage your kids differently than others? Was it hard to be subjective, or was it just business as business, family as family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question If you would. At any point during those kids' lives at accident, I didn't treat them any different. It was the same. They weren't my kids. They were doing a job and they had a job to do. But if you ask anybody else, they were the hardest workers too. They will always tell you that my kids didn't need extra pressure, they didn't get extra credit, they didn't get special treatment. They were the harder workers. They just were head down smart kids doing the right thing for the company.
Speaker 1:Which is not the usual case. Sometimes, A lot of times it's like well, my son-in-law's on the payroll, but he doesn't do anything. He's just married to my daughter, I get it. So there was no nepotism. They had to stand on their own and they performed.
Speaker 2:No, they did, and I heard the same thing. Gene, I've been in the business peer groups for well not anymore, but for 22 years I was in the Vistage Group and in groups with you. Even and I would hear it all the time he's a brother-in-law. He's not worth anything, but I gotta keep him on stuff like that. That was not our case.
Speaker 1:Right, and that was not a tough decision and your kids accepted it. They never said hey, dad, you're just kind of being too hard on us.
Speaker 2:No, we I mean, I don't know. I don't think you would ever get anybody in the organization since the beginning that would ever say I was hard on anybody. Okay, I was the opposite of that. I took responsibility. If it wasn't going well, I would tell them what they were doing. I learned early on to give people a chance and try to get good leadership and they're gonna follow the way of us and I was leading by example at that point and I think that they all got that. I think if you go back and even talk to those guys today, a year and a half later, they're not gonna say anything. But we were fair.
Speaker 1:Right. So eventually you sold your company. I'll come back to that later, but the reason why I bring that up is that that's a guidepost, that from 1987 to 2022, which is 35 years you worked extremely hard, and, whether you're family business or not, just being in business for 35 years is a remarkable achievement. What were your success principles? How did you do that?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I mean, I was driven from the very beginning of my life to have my own company, and I guess you would call it my strategy or my mindset was I didn't really enjoy computers, I enjoyed the business of business. I always wanted to do business and wanted it to be a real business. I wanted to. You know, I worked at General Dynamics, which was, you know, at that point, 100,000 people or some crazy number, and I could just see a million things that should be being done different. And you know, and I thought to myself, if I ever have that opportunity, I'm not doing that at all, I'm going to take care of it. So having a bachelor's in accounting and a bachelor's in computer information systems put me in an unusual position to understand business and computers.
Speaker 2:So, I think that really did help me, and I was a marketing guy from day one, so you put those together and I think that's how we did it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so now you wrote a book. Do it right. It's not about the computers. What was your main message in that book, where there are some of your guiding principles in the formative years?
Speaker 2:Well, it's all about that, and the people will. I don't. It's the same today. Things go wrong in a company. If someone touches a computer, they think they're the computer guy. So then if you were the IT guy and something went wrong, the owners of the company will blame you. If your accounting software didn't work, if your sales CRM didn't work, if your ERP didn't work, if the wireless system doesn't work, they always just blame it on the IT guy. I was said to the people with that book. I was saying if your accounting software is not working because your accounting department's not working, if your CRM software is not working, it's because your sales department's not working. They don't know what to do, so they blame it on software. They do that today.
Speaker 2:It's a computer problem, is a common, common thread of almost all complaints. And I would say to them can you log into the accounting software? Yeah, can you put a debit and a credit in? Yeah, it's not a computer problem, it's an accounting department problem. And to even today, to this day, owners don't understand that if they buy an ERP or a CRM, that the IT guy doesn't even need to be in the conversation. Really, no, 100%, because everything runs on the web or on a computer these days. Why on earth does an IT guy need to help the sales department figure out how to do sales? Yes, it's ridiculous. At the end of the day, it's the sales department that has to own their system and make it work for themselves. It people turn it on and if you can log into it, they're done. Now, if you need a CRM consultant, someone who understands the CRM software, you should hire that guy. That's never the IT guy. If you need accounting software to consultant or an operations consultant, hire them. That's never the IT guy. That's the whole book right there.
Speaker 1:Okay, got it All right. So ultimately, you're going to sell your business in 2022. When and why did you start thinking about selling your business?
Speaker 2:That's another great question. I was one of those guys that your intro said I wasn't planning to work until I died in my desk. But I wasn't planning to sell either. My goal was to technically sell the business to the kids.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I've had several professional guys that I know that have done that the right way and I just thought that would work. What would happen is you give them a deal on the company, they go to the bank and they get some money. Puts them in an accountability position, right, you don't want to just be paying dad, right. Where they're paying dad, they think they can miss a payment, right. So I say you go to the bank. We talked about it a lot during our exit.
Speaker 2:Planning was that you would go to the bank and get some money, I would carry some of it and you guys would take it from there. Corey would be the leader. He had already planned on that, right, we sat on conference room after conference room doing our planning and we ended up saying I said to Corey one day I said if a deal comes along that we can't resist, then whenever that happens we will look at it, but until then you're taken over and if that's what you wanted, you didn't have to. I never made him do that Because we were on the rocket fuel plan for business management. So we were doing all of the right. Every quarter we were doing management, we'd have consultants come in and help us do planning. We were all there and always the thing comes along. What's your exit strategy? And I said the same exact thing all along.
Speaker 2:I just said the same thing. So, if I back up, 10 years before that we joined a peer group for IT guys and the IT guys we joined were only companies of our size.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Very difficult to find, by the way, because we were 80 employees when I sold and the typical IT firm is six to 10. Okay, when you're trying to get in a group, I've been in peer groups my whole career and I was always one of the larger or the largest member of the group and I enjoyed the crap out of it because I could help these guys. It's not a competition. There's more business in California and the world than anybody can do, so who cares? I'll help them. But what I didn't get out of those groups is I didn't get much help. We were the big guy and we had our ducks in a row.
Speaker 2:So eight years about now it'd be 10 years ago I joined a group that was our size and at one point during that conversation, maybe five years into that group, one of the guys was a big picture thinker and he said what if somebody bought us all and we could be turned into this mega IT organization and everybody would make 10X and all these numbers? And we all kind of laughed, but it stays in the back of your mind when that comes up, sure, so I went back and talked to Corey and I said that comes about. That's probably the thing, that is probably the thing. And he's like, yeah, totally, that would be the thing. That would be why we would not sell to him and sell to whoever make this conglomeration of roll up, if you will.
Speaker 1:So. But your kids at the time knew that if you sold to a third party that they did not have any ownership. Interested action at the time.
Speaker 2:That's correct. They did not have stock because, as part of our estate plan, we were working on to transfer that company to them, or any stock would have been a bloody fortune for them, tax wise.
Speaker 2:Right so yeah, we just say no, we're not gonna do that now. They own no stock. So the moral. I'll finish that part of the story and I think that'll answer your question. As I'm sitting there I said we're gonna end up. If this happens, there's gonna be a great opportunity for you guys as far as our estate goes. So we'll talk about that After what ended up happening next, if you want.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do they? Did the issue come up that? Well, hey dad, if you sell to a third party company, what about our jobs? What if they don't wanna keep us? Would you make that a condition of your sale? Well, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you wanna talk about the sale, I'll tell you what happened. What happened was is five years. Three or five years went by, I can't remember exactly, and nothing came of that situation that the guy talked about. But what did happen? One of those gentlemen sold to private equity 50% of his organization.
Speaker 2:He became the base company. Okay, so now it was a private equity rollup, which wasn't what they were talking about in the beginning. Now those guys wanted to. The company is called Noddick. Noddick is the private equity group that ended up providing the money. The company I sold to is VC3. Right, so what ends up happening? At that point, VC3, knowing me and Corey for 10 years, said we want you guys. What you have is Courtney, who does the marketing genius, and you have Corey, who is one of the best operators we've ever seen. We want you guys, and if they hadn't said that I wasn't in, it would have been.
Speaker 1:Really Okay. No, so you were concerned about your kids. I don't know my kids still on the street. I mean they deserve to be here and work hard. They've worked hard for where they are.
Speaker 2:Well, 100%, and it to this day. I hope I made the right decision, because what ended up happening? I was not able as a I'm not sure for sure. I know you're doing loan doctor stuff, but you're a financial guy, so you'll understand that I had this really weird position where my kids had no equity in accent, but I wanted them to have equity in the new co, right. So now I had to sell. So they basically had to give me the money, not my kids, right, yeah? So what I ended up doing was I did part of my estate plan right then and there I negotiated a. It's really gonna be called Phantom Stock, but what I did is I had to carry 30% of this transaction in there. I had to reinvest. Basically I had to reinvest. That was a condition of sale.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So what I did at that point is I took a large position, large amount of that money, and I said I want you guys to convert that money to Phantom Stock with the same rights as Class A premium shares. And the attorneys went after that for months but they did it. So I now have a stake in new co.
Speaker 1:Got it, got it. So was there any other suitors other than VC3 that you had talked?
Speaker 2:to Nope. Okay, I wasn't planning on selling Right, and not only that. To be honest with you, I could tell, knowing what I knew about those guys and what they knew about me. We're sharing financials for 10 years. They know who I am, what about. They know my company inside and out. I know their company inside and out. The multiples were so high and we demanded those multiples because of the kind of company we were and what we had that they didn't have.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:We had things they just didn't have and they were gonna pay extra for it.
Speaker 1:Got it so. So let's assume that your kids could have arranged the financing and they would buy the company and now they're the owners. You don't have to answer this question if you don't want to In the interest of family communications. Do you think they had the wherewithal, in terms of executive ability, to pull it off and be the new owners, or maybe with the proviso that you stay on as a part-time consultant on the payroll or whatever? Would they have the stuff to do it?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that Courtney, Corey and Derek together, who was my longtime COO, could most definitely have done it.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, that's a big point.
Speaker 2:What I believe was that it was better for them to go this route with the reinvestment of the money, because Derek had some stock too. So I negotiated for those three people to have a portion of that 30% to roll over into NUCO that we don't know what that'll be worth someday. They're growing like crazy even now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. I had a gentleman that is an exit strategy specialist about a year ago. He said I forget the statistic, but it was really low, I think. He said only 20% of all owners who intend to sell their company actually are able to accomplish that. Oh yeah, or without a garage sale, I mean a fire sale, I mean they're not taking a tremendous discount, they're getting what they want. So, as you look back, any second thoughts wish I had done this way. What would you have done? Or are you perfectly happy with how things worked out? It wasn't luck, because I can tell, talking to you, there's a lot of preparation and due diligence on your part.
Speaker 2:Oh, there was a lot. I don't have any regrets in doing the deal period. I don't have any regrets of the price. The price was good. They've done everything they said they're going to do. I got my. You had to do a 10% hold back. I got that. I had a small little earn out, I got that. I still have the 30% that's reinvested. I have no doubt that we're going to get that. Now, the statistic that I've heard and this is what I was living by was don't plan on ever getting the 30% If you can't live on the 70%. Don't sell, because I have watched actually another couple of my really good friends sell and never get back that reinvestment because company tanks or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 2:But this company is now 150 million with 700 employees, and they built that from zero just by acquisition and buying me and buying my other friends and all this good stuff 100 employees at a time you know of happening. So I have no doubt that my stock is going to have value. I don't know if it'll be 10 times because with the PE world here we got with interest rates so high that could change what happens with the value of private equity when you go in. They got a lot of money too. So again, maybe it won't be 10X, maybe it won't be 5X, but I know I'm going to get it back plus, and I know my kids are going to get theirs whenever they decide to get it and they don't, by the way, that deal doesn't say they have to get it on the next turn of that PE. They're allowed to roll it over as many times as they want. So if they choose to take it out let's say they sold next year or the year after well, they might not get as much right.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. They take the rest off the table. Yeah, no, I get you. So we're getting close to ending the show. Marty, let's assume that you're a young entrepreneur who's listening in, and maybe there's family that works with the business. Maybe there doesn't. Is there some takeaways or pearls of wisdom you'd like to share with them, since now you have walked the path that they're trying to walk?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is?
Speaker 1:your pearl of wisdom for them.
Speaker 2:I think I have a couple. The one that I always got involved with early was some sort of management system for the group, for the company. Eos is what we ended on at the very last, and that's where Rocket Fuel and all that stuff comes from. A management system changes your company from a lifestyle business to a real business.
Speaker 1:Could you be more specific on the management system? What does it do? How do you break it apart?
Speaker 2:I got you. Well, anytime you're generally early in your career you'll sit down. Maybe you sit down in a room and plan, maybe you don't. What I understand is most entrepreneurs don't really do that, but I always did. I would always go away for two or three days with Derek and I would write a one-year plan, a five-year plan and a quarterly plan for the next year. You are a rare bird. We did it every year. I did that from the gosh. I think I might have the first one I wrote, which was probably in 88 or something. That's amazing, but that's the number one nugget is to have a management plan that works like that and follow it, because most entrepreneurs are using it for lifestyle and they're not running it like it's supposed to be sold. I say, when you run your business to be sold, I would have started earlier running it as as if it was for sale.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's Pearl wisdom number one. What's the second one?
Speaker 2:Yeah. The other one is if this was a bigger business, the financial brain that I didn't have early on, I'm not sure that I would have kept 100% of accent all the way through. Had I understood the time value and the equity potential equity value that would be to go into, say, find a private equity group that would fund me 30% or something. I could build that business so much faster. And a bigger number on a smaller percentage is still a giant number.
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, so you opted sort of the organic cash flow as I'll go as I create the cash needed to expand.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But when I look at my buddy, who did it eight years before I did, before they bought us, he just kept taking bites of that apple multiple times because he sell a little bit here, sell a little bit there. Next thing you know he's got a very small percentage of VC3, but a giant money, a giant organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got you, I got you.
Speaker 2:I would have done that earlier if I could. Now, I'm not saying it's not good for every entrepreneur, because I wanted to own 100% of accent. I never wanted else to own it. But now I Okay.
Speaker 1:So I understand that makes sense. So you're a pilot, you're a motocross grand prix. What do you have? Any side gigs, marty, financial ones, anything, I guess, financial.
Speaker 2:Well, not financially. I still have a contract to help VC3 with mergers and acquisitions.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay, so that was my next question. Do you have any other capacity with Accent in any form or fashion?
Speaker 2:I have no official capacity in anything. I am a consultant that if I find a deal I would get paid if I found a deal for them.
Speaker 1:That's not bad Okay.
Speaker 2:And I am still a consultant, an unpaid consultant for them. Every time they bring an acquisition and they send them to talk to me Got it? They want them to hear the story because even if they don't have kids, or if they do have kids, it's a unique story. So that's what I do. What I'm doing on the side gigs is, when you say the word gig, I have a studio where I have, you know, we record music. So it's okay, that's what I do. Now. I try to play golf and record music.
Speaker 1:You have anything with Taylor Swift?
Speaker 2:No, except for I get to see her in the box when the chiefs play.
Speaker 1:Well, well, Marty, you've done well. What would your parents think of you today?
Speaker 2:I think they'd be okay. You know they're both gone, but I'm telling you my dad was my greatest fan and he would have been fine with it.
Speaker 1:Was he an entrepreneur?
Speaker 2:No, he was an Air Force guy.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, yeah. Well, you're the envy of all of the young budding entrepreneurs. They're saying, god, if I could build a sucker up and then sell it and then take all that cash and sail around the world, I'd be happy. But you got to put the work in the trenches first, right?
Speaker 2:I worked my butt off. I had the most hours of anybody for a long time. You know, however, to be really as an entrepreneur, and you get later and you plan for it to sell. I didn't work harder than anyone at the end, I just was working on the right things, right, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, that's a wrap, Marty. Thank you so much. That's a, it's just. I mean, you don't sound to me like a conceded guy, but what you've done is amazing. No, thank you. You can pat yourself on the back and I would say, maybe you might agree with me your greatest accomplishments are not your business interests, but having two well-adjusted kids and four grandkids. Five, Five grandkids Wow.
Speaker 2:Well, I, personally, I, you know I don't believe any of this was me. I believe that God has his plan and I'm part of it, and I give the glory to him for what's gone down, because I prayed a lot during those 35 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a highly underrated skill that's necessary to climb that corporate ladder. Yeah, okay. Well, thank you so much, marty. Good luck to you. Hope to see you again. You're looking well and, yeah, it'd be nice to have a lifestyle like that. Thank you, dave. All right, I'll talk to you later. Bye-bye, okay, listeners, hope you enjoyed the show. If you did tell a friend, what a wonderful story. All my shows are available on my YouTube channel or the normal podcast, such as Apple, google and Spotify. You can also visit me on my website and I will be talking to you in two weeks. Peace and out.